Good review. Dr. Strom really messed me up about five years ago when I read this (no offense, of course). It actually confirmed a great many things too. The perennial problem, however (and it appears this way in Strom’s brief description of the house church in the book), is once the major hang-ups and verbose forms and walls are torn down, how is the same thing not slowly re-committed? How do we even momentary balance?

Best,

Chris

I’m nosing around your other posts and my interest is piqued. For the past few years I’ve been hanging out in the emerging neighborhood. It has seemed the friendliest place to be while questiong and wrestling with the things you (and other commenters) are talking about. I appreciate having another voice to listen to that isn’t merely anti-Emergent. In addition I’ve always had tremendous respect for the folks I’ve known or listened to who have been connected to Westminster.

Looking forward to hearing what you have to say. Thanks.

thanks again!

I’m not quite sure you can back that assersion up… since ‘apostleship’ is listed as one of the spiritual gifts in one of Paul’s lists. To be fair, I’m coming from the Catholic slant, that the current bishops are exercising the spiritual gift of apostleship…

One thing that I would encourage you to look into is the letters of Ignatius of Antioch (died c 115 AD). You can find some introductory information here:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/IGNATIUS.htm

And with your resources, I’m sure you could find the origional text of his letters, rather than the translations that I’m forced to use.

Ignatius is interesting, in that he gives a snapshot of how the church ‘worked’ within a generation of the origional Apostles.

I tend to harp on this, but I think we as human beings really, really like to understand how things work and what is required and how to set up the “church” according to God’s guidelines. The problem is, this kind of eliminates the whole need to come to Christ for our life. If we have it all figured out, why would we need God? It’s the garden of Eden all over again: once we begin operating out of our own ideas of good and evil (or create our own framework of “church,” however Biblical it seems) we are no longer simply walking with Him in the garden and eating of the tree of life (Christ).

I’m not saying there is no need for teachers (or pastors or any other gifting for that matter), just that we, particularly in the West, have an overdeveloped need to have a structure based in rational understanding so we always know where we stand. If we’re not careful, we will find we have eliminated the place of faith and hope in our “religion”! Perhaps that’s why Paul talked about the real gospel being foolishness to us rational Greeks.

Thanks for your book and for taking the time to read my review. You indeed have my prayers; glad that there are folks like you taking on 83-year-old seminaries!

Jason: I don’t think anyone is denying the importance of having within the Body trained teachers who can help us understand the Word. Seems to me that Mark’s book simply questions those teachers teaching in a way more ‘Greek’ than biblical and also the almost magical, priest-like authority they take on. Their gift is an important one, but just one gift among many in the body.

I also might question using the reference to the apostles as justification for a “professional” ministry. The office of the apostles was time-limited and unique. Furthermore, we might question how much we are reading our modern-church assumptions into church “offices” like bishop, pastor, elder, etc. Are we sure they really were meant to be as we now see them operating?

Mark Traphagan (if someone “outside the fold” may speak… ): Have you read Dangerous Wonder by Mark Yaconelli? He says many of the things you’re quoting from Strom, but in the context of our singular relationship with God, rather than the ‘church system’

The idealist Jason rises up within me reading items like this, painting a beautific vision of servant lead, gatherings of the family of God, focused on real conversion of heart rather than obtruse definitions of theology.

The pessimistic/realistic Jason rebuts with reminders of people taking leadership in various aspects who were not ‘graced’ with the skills or abilities needed for the task. He also raises the Apostles objection ‘It is not right for us to neglect the Word to serve at table’, and the appointing Timothy as bishop by laying on hands.

So, where does that leave us? One question on my mind is how a group of believers would choose between Zedekiah and Micaiah (1 Kings 22).

–Jason

Good review. Every time I feel myself getting too “settled” in the world of the academy, I like to take a quick look back at Reframing Paul to help me feel “uncomfortable” again.

BTW, I’ve emailed the URL for this blog to Mark (Strom) and encouraged him to take a look at it some time.

Sounds like you are having a relaxing — and productive — vacation.

Doug