<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Is God Necessary&#8230;Response #1</title>
	<atom:link href="http://foolishsage.com/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://foolishsage.com/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/</link>
	<description>The Sacred Journey of Mark Traphagen, the Foolish Sage</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: AnotherCoward</title>
		<link>http://foolishsage.com/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2907</link>
		<dc:creator>AnotherCoward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:08:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rmfo-blogs.com/rumorsage/archives/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2907</guid>
		<description>I'd say his refutation is that such an argument is unnatural - even for you.  He's got as much of a point as you do.  This argument is about what morality is - is it some kind of bunk or is it something imprinted in us by God?  In the end you have to throw morality out completely or embrace God.  

I think one of the problems is that in discussing morality (or moral imperatives) we confuse it with sociology (or social imperatives) (sociology may be the wrong word).  Sociology is ulimately a subset of morality because morality is concerned more with who you are in yourself.  When you live a perfect morality, a perfect sociology occurs naturally.  Sociology does not give you a perfect morality -- it gives you something like Liberterianism: people have a standard for interacting but are otherwise free to do whatever they want in isolation or as agreed among individuals.  

And Liberterianism seems to be exactly the kind of thing that Zindler is driving to.  Zindler isn't talking about morality -- he doesn't believe in it; he's thrown out the bunk.  He's talking about sociology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d say his refutation is that such an argument is unnatural - even for you.  He&#8217;s got as much of a point as you do.  This argument is about what morality is - is it some kind of bunk or is it something imprinted in us by God?  In the end you have to throw morality out completely or embrace God.  </p>
<p>I think one of the problems is that in discussing morality (or moral imperatives) we confuse it with sociology (or social imperatives) (sociology may be the wrong word).  Sociology is ulimately a subset of morality because morality is concerned more with who you are in yourself.  When you live a perfect morality, a perfect sociology occurs naturally.  Sociology does not give you a perfect morality &#8212; it gives you something like Liberterianism: people have a standard for interacting but are otherwise free to do whatever they want in isolation or as agreed among individuals.  </p>
<p>And Liberterianism seems to be exactly the kind of thing that Zindler is driving to.  Zindler isn&#8217;t talking about morality &#8212; he doesn&#8217;t believe in it; he&#8217;s thrown out the bunk.  He&#8217;s talking about sociology.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: _steve</title>
		<link>http://foolishsage.com/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2896</link>
		<dc:creator>_steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Feb 2005 01:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rmfo-blogs.com/rumorsage/archives/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2896</guid>
		<description>Your refutation of my argument is that you don't like my argument? Okay...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your refutation of my argument is that you don&#8217;t like my argument? Okay&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: the Foolish Sage</title>
		<link>http://foolishsage.com/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2895</link>
		<dc:creator>the Foolish Sage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Feb 2005 00:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rmfo-blogs.com/rumorsage/archives/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2895</guid>
		<description>How terribly cold and hopeless that universe is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How terribly cold and hopeless that universe is.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: _steve</title>
		<link>http://foolishsage.com/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2891</link>
		<dc:creator>_steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:26:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rmfo-blogs.com/rumorsage/archives/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2891</guid>
		<description>Mark, blow your brains out if you want (no, not really!), but it won't change the fact that you haven't raised a single point I haven't already addressed. "Good" is either: 1) survival, 2) sociological evolution, or 3) an aberrant evolutionary trend that might disappear with the evolutionary descendents of humans, as in the case of Mozart and Picasso. If you'll allow me to channel just a tad bit of Marx, the Canaanite genocide was wrong because of economics.

As I've said before, I'm not compelled to explain emotion, since emotion only ever serves to promote the well-being of the individual or the community; but if I must, then I'll say that emotion is probably leftover evolutionary junk that promoted survival on both the individual and group levels among a lower class of humanoids that lacked higher-order brain function.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, blow your brains out if you want (no, not really!), but it won&#8217;t change the fact that you haven&#8217;t raised a single point I haven&#8217;t already addressed. &#8220;Good&#8221; is either: 1) survival, 2) sociological evolution, or 3) an aberrant evolutionary trend that might disappear with the evolutionary descendents of humans, as in the case of Mozart and Picasso. If you&#8217;ll allow me to channel just a tad bit of Marx, the Canaanite genocide was wrong because of economics.</p>
<p>As I&#8217;ve said before, I&#8217;m not compelled to explain emotion, since emotion only ever serves to promote the well-being of the individual or the community; but if I must, then I&#8217;ll say that emotion is probably leftover evolutionary junk that promoted survival on both the individual and group levels among a lower class of humanoids that lacked higher-order brain function.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: the Foolish Sage</title>
		<link>http://foolishsage.com/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2887</link>
		<dc:creator>the Foolish Sage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rmfo-blogs.com/rumorsage/archives/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2887</guid>
		<description>AC - I've know about My Morning Jacket for about a year also. Someone sent me a sampler disc with some of their stuff. They are an aquired taste (I have to hit skip if my wife is in the car) but I think its my Neil Young background that got me into them at first.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AC - I&#8217;ve know about My Morning Jacket for about a year also. Someone sent me a sampler disc with some of their stuff. They are an aquired taste (I have to hit skip if my wife is in the car) but I think its my Neil Young background that got me into them at first.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: AnotherCoward</title>
		<link>http://foolishsage.com/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2884</link>
		<dc:creator>AnotherCoward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:17:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rmfo-blogs.com/rumorsage/archives/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2884</guid>
		<description>I think you're right, but in the context of the specific material you're refuting... it seems to me anyways that's the general context of good.

By the way, I see you've got MMJ under "the music" section -- how long you been a fan?  I discovered them late last year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;re right, but in the context of the specific material you&#8217;re refuting&#8230; it seems to me anyways that&#8217;s the general context of good.</p>
<p>By the way, I see you&#8217;ve got MMJ under &#8220;the music&#8221; section &#8212; how long you been a fan?  I discovered them late last year.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: the Foolish Sage</title>
		<link>http://foolishsage.com/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2883</link>
		<dc:creator>the Foolish Sage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rmfo-blogs.com/rumorsage/archives/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2883</guid>
		<description>I would still contend that "good for survival" does not in any way adequately account for all that humans consider good and true and beautiful. There is something that happens when I hear a Mozart concerto or see branches against a winter sky that can not be explained by "survival of the species."

And I confess, as I did above, that I would not want to live in a world where it were actually true that all we turned out to be is just very highly evolved machines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would still contend that &#8220;good for survival&#8221; does not in any way adequately account for all that humans consider good and true and beautiful. There is something that happens when I hear a Mozart concerto or see branches against a winter sky that can not be explained by &#8220;survival of the species.&#8221;</p>
<p>And I confess, as I did above, that I would not want to live in a world where it were actually true that all we turned out to be is just very highly evolved machines.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: AnotherCoward</title>
		<link>http://foolishsage.com/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2881</link>
		<dc:creator>AnotherCoward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jan 2005 03:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rmfo-blogs.com/rumorsage/archives/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2881</guid>
		<description>Just to play the devil's advocate, couldn't I basically say that "good" is an instinctual phenomenon that desires for the species to be productive and fruitful.  So anything contrary to that is not "good".  It seems to me anyways that the morality question would be sufficiently answered by this in context of the original essay and Steve's Caananite genocide comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to play the devil&#8217;s advocate, couldn&#8217;t I basically say that &#8220;good&#8221; is an instinctual phenomenon that desires for the species to be productive and fruitful.  So anything contrary to that is not &#8220;good&#8221;.  It seems to me anyways that the morality question would be sufficiently answered by this in context of the original essay and Steve&#8217;s Caananite genocide comment.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: the Foolish Sage</title>
		<link>http://foolishsage.com/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2878</link>
		<dc:creator>the Foolish Sage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:57:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rmfo-blogs.com/rumorsage/archives/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2878</guid>
		<description>Steve, you regularly assert that certain things (Canaanite genocide, for instance) are "just plain wrong," although you offer no reason other than your own intuition as to why they (or anything) would be "wrong" or "right."

Therefore, I will assert that I cannot accept that all of human personality and will is merely and completely the result of a highly complex computer program. If I truly believed that, I would contemplate suicide. My personality, my consciousness, my will, my emotions....everything I experience...points me to a "beyond" that has a reason for being.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, you regularly assert that certain things (Canaanite genocide, for instance) are &#8220;just plain wrong,&#8221; although you offer no reason other than your own intuition as to why they (or anything) would be &#8220;wrong&#8221; or &#8220;right.&#8221;</p>
<p>Therefore, I will assert that I cannot accept that all of human personality and will is merely and completely the result of a highly complex computer program. If I truly believed that, I would contemplate suicide. My personality, my consciousness, my will, my emotions&#8230;.everything I experience&#8230;points me to a &#8220;beyond&#8221; that has a reason for being.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: AnotherCoward</title>
		<link>http://foolishsage.com/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2874</link>
		<dc:creator>AnotherCoward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Jan 2005 04:28:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rmfo-blogs.com/rumorsage/archives/2005/01/27/is-god-necessaryresponse-1/#comment-2874</guid>
		<description>Greg, to address your problem simply, do some research into genetic programming and neural-net AI.  It's the same principle as you described and yet its results are also as you describe.  It takes a lot of time to figure out in the more complex of programs exactly what caused a program to choose as it did... if you scale that complexity to the level of human sentience, well, only God could determine what and why you do the things you do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg, to address your problem simply, do some research into genetic programming and neural-net AI.  It&#8217;s the same principle as you described and yet its results are also as you describe.  It takes a lot of time to figure out in the more complex of programs exactly what caused a program to choose as it did&#8230; if you scale that complexity to the level of human sentience, well, only God could determine what and why you do the things you do.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
